tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post4083305751411086704..comments2023-12-24T05:26:48.861-05:00Comments on The Pittsburgh Comet: And for our Next Trick: The Green TowerBram Reichbaumhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05620172942925293407noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-66694112164881636532011-05-31T16:17:11.790-04:002011-05-31T16:17:11.790-04:00Good one! I'll bet they have a bunch of cats t...Good one! I'll bet they have a bunch of cats too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-41462736223111163102011-05-31T12:23:43.663-04:002011-05-31T12:23:43.663-04:00They were making a rare excursion into town to com...<i>They were making a rare excursion into town to complete a demolition job.</i><br /><br />I'm not going to complain about that.MHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-45708065491762640362011-05-31T11:19:29.972-04:002011-05-31T11:19:29.972-04:00See MH, there's the basic flaw in your argumen...See MH, there's the basic flaw in your argument. Nobody's seeking to keep the city at a standstill. A new 40-story greenest building in the world, with a sliver of four old storefront maintained at one corner of the glass tower, does not equal "staying the same". Rather, it recognizes the value of the old, as well as the new.<br /><br />And the workmen that I referenced were not suburbanites. I talked with them for quite some time. They were making a rare excursion into town to complete a demolition job. Our conversation started when they stopped me during my picture taking to point out the craftsmenship and dedication that went into creating the decorative elements of the Arrott Building (they put it in cruder terms, but that's what they were getting at). The ultra-sophistication and visionary aspects of downtown's modern glass towers apparently failed to capture their attention. Typical hicks, I guess.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-27012603133883848682011-05-31T10:41:33.695-04:002011-05-31T10:41:33.695-04:00It seemed that these guys were not from the city a...<i>It seemed that these guys were not from the city and were not preservationist-types, yet they still appreciated good urban art and fabric when they saw it.</i><br /><br />More suburbanites who want the city to stay the same and then go home to new buildings you can actually use. Wheee.MHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-54795654606376948632011-05-31T09:37:08.641-04:002011-05-31T09:37:08.641-04:00Sorry, not Farmers Bank, the Arrott Building.Sorry, not Farmers Bank, the Arrott Building.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-44336347030064428232011-05-31T09:20:33.176-04:002011-05-31T09:20:33.176-04:00Thanks Brian TH. Just this weekend I biked downtow...Thanks Brian TH. Just this weekend I biked downtown and photographed the facades in question. While I was doing that two workers who were gutting a small retail space across the street (in preparation for expansion of a hair salon) were marveling at the architectural details topping the Farmers Bank Building. It seemed that these guys were not from the city and were not preservationist-types, yet they still appreciated good urban art and fabric when they saw it.<br /><br />Overall, I can't understand the visceral revulsion expressed in this thread toward saving the fronts of a few old buildings on half a block of downtown. Where's the harm in saving a bit of history and visual variety for future generations?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-7098540374934695882011-05-30T17:02:57.038-04:002011-05-30T17:02:57.038-04:00I used to think that before the bailout made it ob...I used to think that before the bailout made it obvious that you get returns based on how much you have to invest as opposed to how much risk you took. <br /><br />But, it is indisputable that Pittsburgh needs new buildings more than it needs to save old ones. We may as well have the banks build one or two nice buildings before we either nationalize all the banks or are impoverished to pay for the yachts of AIG counter parties and the retirements of the team that designed the 1983 Chevette. <br /><br />Plus, a 40 story building with operable windows at least makes defenestration a going option.MHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-27428548967609338452011-05-30T08:49:41.996-04:002011-05-30T08:49:41.996-04:00Perfect example of modern liberalism. Someone els...Perfect example of modern liberalism. Someone else produces, someone else takes risk, someone else designs and builds and the liberals all chatter and criticize.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-50459094690811170442011-05-28T10:01:33.448-04:002011-05-28T10:01:33.448-04:00Something becomes historical once it has outlived ...Something becomes historical once it has outlived 95 to 99% of its contemporary whatevers. And I'm being generous on the lower bound. You have to have some criteria that separates preservationists from hoarders. And obviously too many people have horrible taste so you can't go by that until when get a philosopher king or TV dies.<br /><br />Personally, I've spent my life surrounded by early 20th century commercial architecture and late-middle 20th century residential architecture. They're nice enough, but both should be pushed down if you can get more density in that area.MHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-90491814171138303842011-05-27T16:45:16.526-04:002011-05-27T16:45:16.526-04:00And to Bram:
Don't forget to breathe. Very i...And to Bram:<br /><br />Don't forget to breathe. Very important.BrianTHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-56819763506875946302011-05-27T16:40:42.490-04:002011-05-27T16:40:42.490-04:00By the way, to say something constructive: one of ...By the way, to say something constructive: one of the things I love about the architecture Downtown is its eclecticism--you can see buildings from all sorts of different eras and in different styles in close proximity. To maintain this feel in the future--and I understand some may prefer otherwise--we need to strike a balance between preserving the variety that exists and allowing room for present and future contributions to the mix.<br /><br />Again, in this case I think such a balance will be easily achievable, which is fortunate.BrianTHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-59268275914983120272011-05-27T16:40:23.027-04:002011-05-27T16:40:23.027-04:00I agree with BrianTH, but I'm rooting for MH. ...I agree with BrianTH, but I'm rooting for MH. SWEEP THE LEG!Bram Reichbaumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05620172942925293407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-41902876940599224222011-05-27T16:35:03.638-04:002011-05-27T16:35:03.638-04:00MH
Aside from the fact that is an arbitrary and a...MH<br /><br />Aside from the fact that is an arbitrary and absurd definition of what counts as historical--I have this odd recollection of learning about WWII in my history classes--it also raises the obvious issue of how anything could survive to become historical by this arbitrary and absurd definition if nothing is going to be preserved before it becomes historical.<br /><br />But trust me, I get it--you personally don't like and aren't interested in commercial buildings from the early 20th Century. Your personal preferences have been duly noted.BrianTHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-59930113129781136582011-05-27T15:22:02.143-04:002011-05-27T15:22:02.143-04:00It's the last time there was a Republican in C...It's the last time there was a Republican in City Council. By some measures we are living in the Year of Our Party 75. Some enterprising archaeologists should explore around the walls of those buildings for the fossils of top hats, monocles and self-reliance.Bram Reichbaumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05620172942925293407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-60913156406243367582011-05-27T14:00:47.838-04:002011-05-27T14:00:47.838-04:001905 to 1937 isn't history. It's the rece...1905 to 1937 isn't history. It's the recent past.MHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-51937734267971457342011-05-27T13:51:34.577-04:002011-05-27T13:51:34.577-04:00MH,
So it comes down to you personally not liking...MH,<br /><br />So it comes down to you personally not liking the look of commercial buildings from this era. Enough said.<br /><br />Bram,<br /><br />Here are some pictures of the facades in question (taken from streetview-type programs, so a bit crude):<br /><br />http://i54.tinypic.com/6tk0gg.jpg<br />http://i52.tinypic.com/2iupe0z.jpg<br />http://i53.tinypic.com/15s63nl.jpg<br /><br />Here are some brief notes that cover three of the four facades in question, taken from a PHLF self-guided walking tour brochure:<br /><br />#7 2T Jewelers<br />305 Forbes Avenue<br /><br />Formerly occupied by Bolan’s Candies, this is one of the finest examples in Pittsburgh of the Beaux-Arts style. This small but imposing building of c. 1905 looks like a jewel box. Compare the Ionic pilasters (flattened columns) with those on the Neo-Classical building of c. 1915, next door (Penn Wig & Fashions), originally the F & W Grand 5 to 25 Cent Store, Inc.<br /><br />#8 Rite Aid Pharmacy<br />313–17 Forbes Avenue<br /><br />In 1937, the J. C. McCrory Company had its architect<br />(name unknown) apply this up-to-date Art Deco geometric<br />buff brick façade to what was originally the Olympic<br />Theatre building. <br /><br />Again, though, I think it is important to consider them in context as well. So here are a couple more pictures showing a bit of the context. I've added a red outline to indicate buildings that are currently within the Market Square Historic District. The purple outline is a sort of proposed extension of that District (note I've included everything on the other side of Wood, but that is a detail we could discuss on another occasion). Underscored in yellow are the facades in question.<br /><br />http://i53.tinypic.com/302q5fq.jpg<br />http://i55.tinypic.com/2d83tl0.jpg<br /><br />By the way, nothing about this is arbitrary. When it first became clear that someone was buying up a large parcel in this area, I looked at the facades, and I also looked at a variety of historic photos (which can help one determine what might be lurking under a facade). At that time I concluded that only this stretch along Forbes was worth preserving--the rest of what is along Wood and Fifth is not worth preserving in my view.<br /><br />As it turns out, PNC's current design isn't making use of the relevant space. That is probably just a coincidence, but it means that at least as far as these sketches are concerned, the facades I identified as worth preserving don't interfere with their design.BrianTHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-46758074400981197862011-05-27T13:20:47.665-04:002011-05-27T13:20:47.665-04:00Perhaps we'd better take a closer look at what...Perhaps we'd better take a closer look at what lies on that block presently and evaluate how worthy of attention it might be. I concede the point that arbitrary preservation can be plenty brutal. I also think we should concede that sometimes once you sweep and polish the place some nice wood and fixtures can be noticed.<br /><br />On a related note, has anyone noticed if there is less vagrancy and panhandling in Market Square since its makeover, and if there is indeed less, has it or they been displaced anywhere in particular?Bram Reichbaumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05620172942925293407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-54161671842703197502011-05-27T13:07:09.240-04:002011-05-27T13:07:09.240-04:00I understand the concept and it makes great sense ...I understand the concept and it makes great sense if something were actually historic (say 150 years old or more) as opposed to just old. Even something ugly (and downtown Pittsburgh is mostly ugly) could make sense to save if it were unique, but half the cities in the U.S. have block after block of that type of building.<br /><br />The same impulse that fills the Louvre also leads to people with 800 cats in a two bedroom ranch.MHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-22065651471974866632011-05-27T12:46:16.123-04:002011-05-27T12:46:16.123-04:00Again, whether or not you personally like the look...Again, whether or not you personally like the look of these buildings is not something I think is worth discussing.<br /><br />As for your "abundance" argument, is the following issue really so hard for you to understand?<br /><br />People sometimes create historic "districts" (or zones, or so on). Within such a district, various structures will be deemed to contribute to the district as a whole. To understand why that makes some sense, you just need to understand that as people move around such a district, they don't see each structure as entirely divorced from its context. Indeed, it would take an unnatural and constant effort for people to filter out the context.<br /><br />In that context, "abundance" isn't a vice, it is a virtue, because the more contributing structures within the district, the more cohesive it will be. And as it so happens, there is already a city-designated Market Square Historic District:<br /><br />http://www.city.pittsburgh.pa.us/cp/maps/historical/Market-Square-CHD.pdf<br /><br />So one way of putting what I am proposing is that this Market Square Historic District could be expanded up Forbes a bit more, formally or informally. And in fact, I think that is already happening on an informal basis, so I am basically just proposing that PNC join in that process with these facades.<br /><br />Now are you claiming you really just don't understand that concept at all? That the very idea of a historic district strikes you as strange or perverse?<br /><br />Or is it just that you are saying that you personally wouldn't like such a district? Because that would just take us back to your personal tastes.BrianTHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-56974470326490639642011-05-27T12:18:09.903-04:002011-05-27T12:18:09.903-04:00Plus, it's unique.Plus, it's unique.MHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-9649654837682560592011-05-27T12:15:17.782-04:002011-05-27T12:15:17.782-04:00That's fine.
But I don't understand the...That's fine. <br /><br />But I don't understand the impulse to preserve something that is hugely abundant and not obviously attractively, especially in a region where the average building is poorly maintained. If they manage to replace/repair the Greenfield bridge, I hope you’ll call on them to preserve the underbridge that was to stop cars from being pummeled by chunks of the real bridge. That at least crosses into Dada.MHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-27301370535542080502011-05-27T12:09:16.732-04:002011-05-27T12:09:16.732-04:00Like PNC did in building 3 PNC?
I think I will no...Like PNC did in building 3 PNC?<br /><br />I think I will now take you at your word that you personally don't think you need to have a point before you post something on the Internet.BrianTHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-9390985425732207612011-05-27T11:54:39.816-04:002011-05-27T11:54:39.816-04:00By 'real money,' I mean somebody who isn&#...By 'real money,' I mean somebody who isn't asking for a public subsidy.MHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-81034949703271107842011-05-27T11:37:06.782-04:002011-05-27T11:37:06.782-04:00Incidentally, there is an unintentional double neg...Incidentally, there is an unintentional double negative near the end of my last post (I suspect the point was clear anyway).BrianTHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1588280325775325323.post-71436805535731735172011-05-27T11:34:26.799-04:002011-05-27T11:34:26.799-04:00Anonymous,
But that's the thing--the section ...Anonymous,<br /><br />But that's the thing--the section in question apparently doesn't have a glass facade (which wouldn't be Brutalist). It is really out of keeping with the rest of the design, and I would note that in the press release, PNC said they would be seeking public comment on the street-level retail component. So I really think that was just a placeholder.<br /><br />MH,<br /><br />I'm having a lot of trouble following you. At one point you said: "Apparently, things can crumble for years and that's not a problem. Nobody notices until somebody wants to replace a building." When I pointed out that people had actually been discussing these issues for a long time, you responded: "That's my point exactly." I have no idea how to reconcile those two statements.<br /><br />Anyway, you now seem to be claiming that this proposal is "what you do when nobody can actually get real money."<br /><br />This, of course, is wrong. I have previously pointed out that Market Square Place, a Millcraft project that cost them real money, opted to preserve and renovate similar historic facades. The Penn Avenue Fish Company building just went through a similar process across the street. Here are some before and after pictures:<br /><br />http://i54.tinypic.com/minoe1.jpg<br />http://www.popcitymedia.com/galleries/development/issue227/308forbes_580.jpg<br /><br />Point Park University is in the midst of spending a lot of money on its expanding Downtown footprint, and it also plans to incorporate historic facades in its new Playhouse, which is on the other side of the street:<br /><br />http://www.pointpark.edu/About/AcademicVilliageInitiative/media/About/AcademicVillage/playhouse_crop.jpg<br /><br />This is very common in other cities as well. Here is a project in Vancouver which will have a similar look:<br /><br />http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/2092NoWhiskeyAtFostersJamesonHouse_pic1.jpg<br /><br />To sum up: if you don't like it personally, you don't like it. Fine. But you are wrong to suggest that this isn't an option that people with money to spend would never choose. There really is a market for this stuff, even if you aren't part of that market.BrianTHnoreply@blogger.com